Quality 101: Walk Before You Run

Transcript

[00:00:59] Josh Santo: Our guest is a seasoned quality leader with over 25 years of experience transforming operations across the automotive, refrigeration, and even cowboy boot manufacturing. Originally from Brazil, he began his career in automotive manufacturing where structure, standardization and discipline laid the groundwork for his approach to quality.

[00:01:20] But over time, he craved more freedom to experiment, which led him to the dynamic world of refrigeration. And eventually to the US In 2013, he’s led quality and operational excellence across both Fortune 500 companies and fast moving startups, helping teams implement ISO 9,001, build supplier development programs and embed continuous improvement practices across global supply chains.

[00:01:46] Now, director of Quality at RR Donnelley, he oversees quality for one of the company’s four business segments, and recently led the initiative to get all of their US manufacturing sites, ISO 9,001 certified on a tight timeline, and with a small core team here today to share with us some of his hard learned lessons.

[00:02:06] Please welcome to the show, Thiago Roveri,

[00:02:09] Josh Santo: Thiago, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. 

[00:02:12] Thiago Roveri: me. Josh? 

[00:02:14] Josh Santo: Well, I’m glad we could connect. I know a couple of reschedules a little bit. My busy schedule, you certainly had a busy schedule as well, but it sounds like things have settled down for both of us enough that we could have a little chit chat about manufacturing and quality and more.

[00:02:29] Thiago Roveri: Yes.

[00:02:31] Josh Santo: So we’re talking about what people get wrong about quality in manufacturing, and I’m very curious to get your perspective on this. This is a question that I really like to ask different folks and and focus in on their expertise, whatever their role is. In manufacturing, you’ve got years of quality experience under your belt at multiple different companies, big and small, so all sizes.

[00:02:55] Josh Santo: You’ve got quite the wealth of experience to draw from. From your perspective, what do people often get wrong about quality in manufacturing?

[00:03:07] Thiago Roveri: Josh. from my experience, I believe that the biggest mistake that, companies, make is they try to run before they can walk.

[00:03:18] Josh Santo: Run before walk. What? What do you mean by that?

[00:03:21] Thiago Roveri: So they overlook the basics, of, a solid quality foundation. and what I mean by basics is, to have a clear understanding of. Their internal processes, have clear communication and management support, promote from, from foundational training to the, the people that work for them and, and obviously ensuring, proper documentation.

[00:03:44] Thiago Roveri: So using an analogy to illustrate that idea, it’s like learning a new language, right? When you start learning, learning a new language, after, after two or three months, you don’t get engaged in a political debate because you don’t have enough knowledge of that language yet. So you start with the basics.

[00:04:03] Thiago Roveri: You start with the basic vocabulary for the day-to-day activities. Then you go a little bit to grammar. Then you learn how to listen to the new language. And, and as you move forward, you are developing your skills, and then you can go to more sophisticated ways of using that new language. So in, in, in operational and quality, that is more or less what I see when companies, Fail with their quality goals and, customer expectations. They try to use, sophisticated tools before they, they have basic processes in place.

[00:04:41] Josh Santo: So thinking about this not getting the quality results that they, they know that they should be good in, in order to meet customer expectation and they try to do something about it by potentially implementing things that they’re just not ready for, when really they would get a ton of value if they would focus on the basics.

[00:05:02] Josh Santo: So when you share this idea that many people in manufacturing, try to run before they can walk with regards to quality, you mentioned the walking being the basics, the clear understanding of key processes, clear communication, management, support. Training and documentation, those being the foundational elements that you talked about.

[00:05:27] Josh Santo: What would the running look like if they’re not doing that piece? What are they? What are they doing? What’s that advanced tools they try to use before?

[00:05:37] Thiago Roveri: So let’s, let’s use as an example. Lean Six Sigma philosophy, right? It, it became very popular after Toyota started implementing and developing the tools, decades ago. And, and now everybody wants to implement Lean Six Sigma philosophy in their organizations, right? What happens to many companies is that, they are trying to follow a trend and they end up jumping into initiatives to implement Lean Six Sigma without understanding that Lean Six Sigma philosophy is not only a set of tools that you pick and start applying, it involves a, a deep cultural change.

[00:06:20] Thiago Roveri: So they try to go to sophisticated linked tools before they have a, a, basic problem solving,methodology in place. they, they try to go to statistical tools before they have standardized processes. You can’t apply statistical tools. Before you have standard in your processes and organization. another good example is when companies decide to implement, for example, an expensive ERP system, believing that, this new system will fix all of their problems in terms of planning, in terms of,production scheduling. But in reality, more often than not, the problems are within their processes, not with the system itself. So as a result, they just transfer the problems that they have with their manual processes to a more sophisticated system, which doesn’t solve the issues that they are trying to address.

[00:07:18] Josh Santo: You know, I’m, I’m listening to the examples that you’re sharing and I’m struck by this idea of, of. Focusing too much on a solution and not really getting to the root cause of the problem. Because this whole scenario kind of popped up because we were talking about realizing that you don’t, you’re not getting the quality results that you need to get, and so you’re trying to do something about that.

[00:07:42] Josh Santo: And so you jump to what is popular, what’s trending, what you quote unquote know is the solution to the problem. You mentioned Lean Six Sigma, you mentioned implemented an ERP system. But if those things aren’t actually tackling the issue that needs to be addressed, then you’re still not gonna get the results that you’re looking for.

[00:08:06] Josh Santo: And to your point, really, when you peel things back, you have to make sure that you are doing things correctly in the first place because tools aren’t gonna fix a broken process. They’re just gonna help you make your process. More efficient at that point. So if your process isn’t working and you know why it’s not working, that’s when you can start to explore how tools can help.

[00:08:31] Josh Santo: If your process isn’t working and you’re not really sure why, well maybe you need to peel some things back, get to that what’s actually happening before you start bringing in tools to solve it.

[00:08:44] Thiago Roveri: Absolutely right Josh. and when, when you learn the foundations of. Problem solving. The first basic thing that you have to do is to have a clear understanding of the problem. What happens sometimes is that, the teams, the company will jump into, corrective actions even before having a clear understanding of what the problem and the root causes.

[00:09:09] Thiago Roveri: So the problems are usually, generic and vague, and then by that, you, you can’t get to the, real root cause, right? So a a, a good way to address that issue is when you’re describing your problem, is to ask what, when, why, and to what extent. If you can answer those four questions during your problem description, you are probably getting a very good and accurate idea of what, what you have to address.

[00:09:40] Thiago Roveri: And then from there, you can start investigating the root causes for the corrective actions.

[00:09:47] Josh Santo: What, when, why, and to what extent. And so if your problem statement can touch on those topics, you have something pretty solid to then work from again, digging into the root cause so that you can identify whether or not a new tool or a new solution needs to be brought in to help you solve some of the problems.

[00:10:05] Thiago Roveri: exactly right. 

[00:10:06] Josh Santo: Isn’t that interesting? How. This is root cause analysis. Problem solving is, is such a common focal point in manufacturing, more so than what I’ve seen with other industries that I’ve worked with in, in a way that’s very great. I, I really think that there’s, so many lessons that I’ve learned through talking with manufacturers like yourself that I think are so applicable outside the realm of manufacturing.

[00:10:30] Josh Santo: Sometimes I’ve noticed that these concepts and these principles, we miss the opportunity to apply them when they’re not necessarily related to the process itself. The, so the example being, you know, a, we need to get this new tool, to fix this problem. We didn’t stop to really define what the problem is, really dig into the root cause of that.

[00:10:54] Josh Santo: I can think of another example. I spoke to a, a director of quality and operational excellence at a, at a mid-size plastic. Manufacturing company. And he told me a story about how they were having an issue with personnel and with turnover. And in particular, they noticed that a majority of their employees were coming back late from breaks.

[00:11:19] Josh Santo: And they were immediately going to the process of, you know, you’re, you’re late once. That’s a, a verbal warning late again. That’s a written warning. Late again, that’s a conversation with hr. Now we’re looking at more punitive measures, that type of thing. And he told me that when he got involved, ’cause you know, he’s, he’s not in hr, but I believe it was, it was either the vice president or the CEO of the company asked him to help with this process.

[00:11:47] Josh Santo: They started applying. The, the very same root cause analysis of problem solving skills that you apply, you know, in your day to day. And what they ultimately found, I know I’m, I’m telling a long story, but what they ultimately found was that people were coming back late from breaks because on their break they were leaving the campus to go to the gas station.

[00:12:06] Josh Santo: And when coming back, it was right at the right time where a train was passing by and they couldn’t, and they couldn’t come back. So then they didn’t stop there though. They asked, why are you leaving on your brakes? And, you know, through peeling it back, they ultimately found that people were leaving to use the facilities at the gas station because the facilities at the plant just weren’t very, it just wasn’t very clean.

[00:12:32] Josh Santo: It just wasn’t a place that they wanted to be. And so you know, when you got to that and they addressed that and they prioritized fixing that, all of a sudden. People aren’t coming back late from their breaks. But it, it struck me as such a, an, an interesting example of running to a specific solution without completely understanding the problem in an environment in which we often champion really defining the problem and really pulling back and getting to that root cause.

[00:12:58] Josh Santo: And so it just stuck out to me that you kind of described the same thing in a slightly different scenario.

[00:13:04] Thiago Roveri: Very interesting that you mentioned that. we have a, a specific training, for the teams that we, we have in quality and operations here at the company that I work, we call it quality committee, and I. one of the, the tools that we use is a five y. We want to teach people how to use a five y because it’s a tool, simple tool anybody can apply.

[00:13:26] Thiago Roveri: You can apply to, to your point, any kind of, problems that you have not necessarily related to production. And, and actually, to you and to the listeners here, there is a very good example on YouTube if you look for, famous Jefferson Memorial, five y of how they fixed the issue with,the deterioration of the mon the monument. and they, they applied the five ways. So it, it’s one of the most basic, tools that you can apply to a root cause investigation. Simple, and it takes you to, to where you need to be.

[00:14:04] Josh Santo: Yeah, we spoke with a, a guest recently about Lean and Six Sigma, and he has a lot of experience implementing not just Lean but Six Sigma and Lean Six Sigma, and one of the things that he talked about was. lean being a great starting point, particularly for, the simple tools that it offers, like the five y the simple but effective tools that it offers.

[00:14:26] Josh Santo: And I was having a conversation with a quality manager, and he was a newer quality manager, did have the same type of experience that you have or the same type of training. And he was describing some struggles that he had with the five why’s. And just at a high level to, to describe the, the difficulty it was, when do you stop with the five YI know there’s five why’s, but sometimes three can be enough.

[00:14:54] Josh Santo: Sometimes you have to go a little bit deeper. And so he was struggling with how literal you take the five y and then. Some of it was, was around the question themselves. It’s not just why did that happen? I think he was struggling a little bit with why, you know, I, I can’t remember the exact, observation, but it was, okay, why did this happen?

[00:15:15] Josh Santo: Well, the person like this, this defect made its way to the customer because the person didn’t catch it, right. Well, okay, you could go, why didn’t the person catch it? But you could also go, well, why was there a defect that the person needed to catch? And that was another of the struggle is, is what direction do you take these whys?

[00:15:37] Josh Santo: So I give you that context, Thiago. ’cause I’m curious about your perspective with the five why’s. How deep do you go and which direction do you go with those why’s.

[00:15:49] Thiago Roveri: That’s A very good.

[00:15:50] Thiago Roveri: point and question, Josh, so, one of the aspects that you, you, you can consider to assess whether your five Y is, is moving in the right direction or not, is to try to see are the answers for the wise focused on people or on processes. More often than not, people will tend to focus on people like you just mentioned, you know, because the operator didn’t catch it or because the operator didn’t inspect it. But you know, nobody wakes up in the morning and decide to go to work to do the wrong thing. Everybody there is trying to do their best. So the first, assumption that we have to have in those kind of those kind of investigations is where did the process fail? Yes, the operator didn’t check it, but what is wrong with the process that allowed the operator to escape that process, right?

[00:16:54] Thiago Roveri: That is specific quality protocol. So try to focus on the process rather than the operator or the people involved. Now. to complete answering your question, where to stop. So it, it’s a challenge for everybody. and you can go down to six, seven wise if you want. The, the, the reference that I use when I’m working with, our teams here is if you get to a point where you are confident that the actions will address the gaps in the process with low cost, then you can stop there because you, you can keep going and say, Hey, we have to buy a robot to, to automate this process.

[00:17:44] Thiago Roveri: So we don’t depend on people, but the cost of that is too high and many, in many instances doesn’t justify that action. So you, you, you go back. To the previous why, and maybe try to identify why can, what can you do with the process to, address that gap?

[00:18:06] Josh Santo: You know, you reminded me of a, a conversation we had with another guest. His name is Gary Jing. Actually, he’s the one I mentioned earlier about having experience with Lean Six Sigma. he mentioned that on that example that you brought up, you talked about the idea of your, your confidence that it will address the gaps, with a low cost.

[00:18:25] Josh Santo: Then you can stop there. And one of the topics we got into together was on that idea of cost and return on investment. And he said, you don’t have to complicate it. It can really just be as simple as a, as directionally identifying is the impact of solving this. Is that. Low, medium or high, and is the cost that we are exploring for this solution low, medium, and high, and using that to really quickly ascertain whether this is the way in which we should pursue solving this particular problem.

[00:19:00] Josh Santo: And so I find it interesting that you’re recommending stop, or a good place that you can stop is when you feel confident that you would address the gap. You would do so in a way that’s low cost as well and is not extremely ridiculous, both from an implementation perspective or a cost perspective.

[00:19:21] Thiago Roveri: Absolutely right. And the metric, the matrix that you just described is a great and a very effective, tool that you can add, use to object, objectively measure, where you are, right? So you, you can understand from the high, low, medium, high priority, risk and cost, you can understand, where the sweet spot for that action is

[00:19:47] Josh Santo: Yeah, find the sweet spot. Then you can stop.

[00:19:51] Thiago Roveri: exactly.

[00:19:53] Josh Santo: Well, so we talked about the idea of where the misstep is being. People try to run before they can walk, and we talked about the idea of walking, being a focus on the basics. Just to recap those, again, clear understanding of key processes, clear communication, management support, foundational training, proper documentation.

[00:20:13] Josh Santo: Running in this, in this conversation, we kind of defined it as using advanced techniques that, and tools that you aren’t really ready for, and the overall message being really focus on the process, really dig into it. How did the process enabled this problem to occur? Then focus on what are the solutions that you can implement in order to do that.

[00:20:34] Josh Santo: I want to talk a little bit more about those basics, particularly about the processes. Talk to us about this idea of having a clear understanding of key process. What do you mean by that?

[00:20:49] Thiago Roveri: S so very good question. in, in, in many cases when we, we speak of processes in operations, people think of manufacturing processes, production, machinery, but the point is that. Anything that you do in your organization, actually in your life can be translated to a process. The basic concept of a process is you have an input and then you transform that input into something that will give you the expected output.

[00:21:18] Thiago Roveri: And from there you can extract metrics, you can develop the methods for that process. So, when we, we try to focus on process, we are basically mapping the key processes of quality. In our case, for example, so we are having an issue with a specific production line. So what are the processes behind that, production line that we can improve?

[00:21:42] Thiago Roveri: And then what are the inputs, what are the outputs that we are getting? And what are, why are they they not meeting the, the goals? And you can start focusing and prioritizing based on that analysis. So it’s important to map. Your processes. And, with that in mind, you can use the input process output.

[00:22:04] Thiago Roveri: What, what do I expect from this process, right? And what are, what are the inputs that I’m getting to process that is specific task, be it a manufacturing process, a purchasing process, a production planning process. And, and then use the inputs and outputs to, understand how to improve it and how to map it.

[00:22:30] Josh Santo: I like this idea of exploring beyond just the manufacturing process. So from the manufacturing process we’re really talking about there, the raw material or the, you know, the starting good. If, if that’s how you’re. Process goes, it’s going through all the aspects that have to happen to go from whatever it is that you received to the product that you’re shipping to your customer at that point.

[00:22:53] Josh Santo: And that’s, that’s the manufacturing process. And what you’re describing is, is you really need to look, not just at that aspect, but everything that factors into what your company is doing day in and day out in order to conduct business. So to that example, where did those materials come from? Right? Part of the process is understanding how did we purchase that?

[00:23:18] Josh Santo: How did we source. These particular suppliers, what sort of, what sort of analysis do we perform to ensure that they are someone that we wanna do business with, et cetera, et cetera. so really thinking of that more system systemic approach, everything that goes into it. I’d like to hear a little bit more about that.

[00:23:38] Josh Santo: Maybe let’s think of the example in quality. What are some quality processes that come to mind that people should really make sure that they have an understanding not only of how they should perform their own process, but how it impacts the greater process?

[00:24:01] Thiago Roveri: So.

[00:24:01] Thiago Roveri: let, let’s let’s use the inspection of a product as a process, right? So you, you made the product, or you are making the product, and along the way you have to pull samples for inspection. So that inspection itself is, is a process. And what is the outcome that you want to have from that process? Well, I want, once I complete the inspection, I wanna make sure that the product meets the customer specification. That is the outcome, right? What are the inputs that I’m. Getting from the process to execute that inspection. So how many samples do I have to pull, at what frequency, right? And how do I inspect that product? I can give you a number of examples where basic, the basic method of the inspection, was not coherent with how the customer used the product. So, in some instances. The inspection that we were performing, different types of products. I’m speaking of automotive companies and, and, refrigeration. So we were conducting inspection in a way that was not replicating the condition that the customer is going to use that product. So when the product gets to their, location and they, they try to apply to use, to install, they have issues, but because our inspection process was not robust enough to cover, what the customer wants, so by, by doing that analysis of the process, you understand, okay, so I have a problem with an input here, right? The way or the method or the sequence that I am conducting, that inspection is not adequate to what the customer needs. Then I have to revise that method, if that makes sense.

[00:25:56] Josh Santo: It does make sense you in that example, run into a situation where the customer is saying, this doesn’t meet our requirements, and yet you’re performing the inspection that. The whole purpose of it is to ensure that it meets the customer requirements. You could end up in a situation where the customer says, it’s not meeting our requirements, and you say, yes they are.

[00:26:18] Josh Santo: We can prove it. We did this, therefore we’re good. but instead there’s a little bit of taking that approach of, okay, something in the process isn’t working. In this case, it was understanding what you needed to inspect and, and verifying there. And then I’m sure that then also leads into part of the manufacturing process, which is, you know, okay, great, you’re catching this before it gets to the customer.

[00:26:45] Josh Santo: But now, like, why is this even being made this way to begin with? There’s also maybe the unknown of what happened in transport, right? Was something affected during that? So what, you know, there’s so many different avenues. You really have to be a, a detective identifying these different potential threads that could be impacting the output and start to explore.

[00:27:06] Josh Santo: All those different threads.

[00:27:09] Thiago Roveri: Very good.

[00:27:09] Thiago Roveri: point, Josh. And, there is also the customer side, right? one, popular qu quote in quality is that the customer is not always right, but they are always the customer. So there is a, a, a profound philosophy behind that, meaning that, hey, eventually the customer will be wrong. But he is the customer and, and he is the one calling the shots in terms of spec, what they need, and they are the ones paying the, the product, right?

[00:27:39] Thiago Roveri: So it’s a matter of, in your investigation of the gaps that you have in your process, how can we work with the customer to clear up any misunderstanding in terms of spec application and things like that. So it’s important to involve the customer, sometimes in a, in a resolution of a problem.

[00:28:00] Josh Santo: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we talked about this on another podcast episode is who is actually your customer? ’cause there’s your customer who is purchasing your product. They probably, depending on the product that you manufacture, they might have a customer purchasing their product that features your product.

[00:28:19] Josh Santo: but we also talked about how different groups, different teams, different departments within your own organization are also your customer. And we talked about it from that idea of when you look at that entire. System, the entire process and all the inputs that need to come together in order to output, the product or the information or whatever is needed in that case.

[00:28:41] Josh Santo: There’s a lot of different dependencies by different teams and different groups and how approaching each of these groups as your own customer and keeping that, that idea of they may not always be right, but they are our customers, so let’s work with them to identify where there’s an unmet need so we can partner together and deliver that, you know, fantastic customer experience, exceed customer expectation.

[00:29:06] Josh Santo: That’s not only beneficial from the end user perspective or the end customer perspective, but just your internal team as well.

[00:29:15] Thiago Roveri: Absolutely. And another, tremendous beneficial tool that you can use in quality to improve,the quality of your products is to make sure that the operators, the people making the product understand the application of the product. Because, in many cases, the operator is making something that he has no idea of how that is used by whom and, and, and when.

[00:29:41] Thiago Roveri: So if you, you don’t have to send. All your operators to the customer to visit their operation to see how their products are used. But you know, if you can prepare a quick presentation, a quick training, and then we go back to one of the basics, you know, foundational training to the operators for them to understand, hey, this is, this is why this is important, you know, because this is how the customer applies our product.

[00:30:06] Thiago Roveri: So this is why we have to pay attention to this aspect or this inspection. So when they, they do that, they own the product,more solidly and consistently. 

[00:30:18] Josh Santo: Connecting to that bigger why, here’s why This what may seem like a small, unimportant detail. Like who cares if I place this here versus here? It’s still, you know, allows for the part to be assembled and really breaking it down. Like, here’s how this gets used. There’s a safety element to that. You know, if this isn’t placed correctly, this thing could collapse and people could get hurt.

[00:30:43] Josh Santo: So even though this sounds small, it’s important. I love it when you, when you really bring that idea of here’s here’s the impact of the work that you’re doing. And there’s a lot of information and studies out there that connect to that idea that it’s, it’s always better to err on the side of here’s the why.

[00:31:00] Josh Santo: And that helps develop accountability in that case. ’cause 

[00:31:06] Thiago Roveri: Exactly right. 

[00:31:07] Josh Santo: of the why.

[00:31:09] Josh Santo: Now we’ve talked a little bit about process mapping and throughout our conversation of the basic tools that are needed, I noticed that we’ve talked multiple times at this point about root cause analysis and problem solving.

[00:31:23] Josh Santo: So would you say that part of the basics is having a structured root cause analysis and problem solving approach in place?

[00:31:34] Thiago Roveri: Absolutely. and that is probably the first area where I would, start attacking, to improve the quality or to implement any, continuous improvement, strategy. And you don’t have to go to, again, sophisticated tools to implement a robust root cause analysis. If you use the five Ys, the fishbone diagram, which is also known as the cause effect diagram, and. In some cases, affinity diagram. Affinity diagram is basically you, you bring up, your team together, you collect the suggestions of the team, what what they think is causing the problem, and then you categorize those in different categories, which can be also linked to your cause effect diagram. And from there you start prioritizing based on, you know, I, I believe that there’s a specific category, for example, material or machine machinery or contributing to 80% of the problem.

[00:32:35] Thiago Roveri: So you know that your corrective actions have to be focused on those two categories, of your, root cause investigation.

[00:32:45] Josh Santo: Got it. Well, you know, we’ve talked a a lot about the root cause analysis and problem solving, and I, I know we can have a whole episode on that, but I’m curious, are there other basics that you think need to be in place for manufacturers? We talked about process mapping, we’ve talked about root cause analysis and problem solving.

[00:33:02] Josh Santo: What else would you recommend?

[00:33:04] Thiago Roveri: You mentioned the five five s. Five s is, is a very strong tool to help not only organize your, working area, but also to create the discipline. many people, misunderstand the meaning of five s and they think that, you know, it’s just have a place for everything and everything in its place. But five s goes much beyond that by doing that, you know, by, by. Creating a space for everything and making sure that everything is in its place and organized, and you are keeping that routine consistently. You are creating a discipline for quality. You create order, right? So we discussed this earlier, is standard is important for quality. Whenever you, you, you deviate from the standard, you are at risk of having quality issues, right?

[00:34:05] Thiago Roveri: So when you are creating this discipline of maintaining the order of your working area, be it an office or a production environment, you are creating this culture of, okay, so we have a standard and we have to keep that,up and in and in place to make sure that everything is, moving in the right direction.

[00:34:27] Josh Santo: There’s an aspect of discipline to what you’re saying, this is the way we do things. This is how they should be. A five S program is really, not just knowing what those, what that is, what those standards are, but also making sure that you’re monitoring them and catching when they’re not and intervening and doing something about it to get it back to, to the standard.

[00:34:50] Thiago Roveri: Absolutely right. And it, it also involves accountability, Josh. So, I, I mentioned that, you know, when you’re root causing a problem, it’s important to focus on the process. Yes. but for, for, for, for the example, the five s, if, after training, after establishing the methodology, the culture there, people are still insisting not following that, that may require a, a kind of warning, you know, or even write ups, because accountability is important.

[00:35:21] Thiago Roveri: People have to understand that, hey, if I don’t follow the, the standard, if I don’t follow the procedures. That the company established, there are consequences.

[00:35:32] Josh Santo: Hmm. That word accountability is, is certainly an interesting one because like you said, nobody comes to work, with the intention of not doing. A good job. And in the terms of accountability, we want to, enforce a certain behavior to some degree. so how do you balance this idea of, of this is the way things are, this is the way that we do things.

[00:35:58] Josh Santo: There’s, there’s no exceptions. Make sure that you are doing this thing this way. And, on the flip side, you know, understanding that if someone’s not doing something a certain way, there’s a reason why for that. But to dig into, well, why aren’t they doing that can take time and resources and energy.

[00:36:17] Josh Santo: So how do you balance the, this idea of accountability? We have to do things this way and accepting or exploring when things aren’t getting done that way.

[00:36:30] Thiago Roveri: The

[00:36:30] Thiago Roveri: first thing is.

[00:36:31] Thiago Roveri: you have to make sure that the standard is in place, that the company has defined a clear, standard standard, and that that standard, has been communicated in,everybody’s trained in that specific standard or method, right? So once you do that, then if you still have gaps, you have to understand are they isolated to a specific. Person or a specific area. Is there anything that we have to do differently in that area to improve the training, to improve the, consciousness of that specific standard? And then after that, once you, you, you guarantee that, okay, I did my part as a company, you know, we created the method, the discipline.

[00:37:15] Thiago Roveri: We understand that this is, from a customer standpoint, from a safety standpoint, the best method to do it. We train everybody. People are not following. We retrain people and they are still not following. Then you start moving to the next level of accountability. let’s use for example, safety. If you, if you never communicate your employees that in the manufacturing area, you have to, to wear earplugs, they will never wear them, right?

[00:37:41] Thiago Roveri: And you can’t blame them for that. So going back to what I said, earlier. Make sure that you made it clear to everybody, Hey, this is a safety rule you have to follow. This is where you can get your earplugs, and your you you have to use them in, in your production environment. then after that, you start moving to the next level. did I train everybody? Did I include that part of the training in an onboarding process? Right? and if people still insist in not following, then you can move on to the next level of accountability.

[00:38:15] It is time for an ad break. Now, unlike other shows, our ads aren’t advertisements. Our ads are advice, quick tips and insights from your fellow manufacturing pros in the shop floor, top floor community. Here’s the one now.

[00:38:33] 

[00:38:33] Steve Povenz: I’m Steve Povenz. I have over 30 years of manufacturing experience primarily in the quality field.

[00:38:41] Steve Povenz: One piece of advice that I always give people is to understand who your customer is. Sometimes that’s not always easy to understand, but we need to think about who our customer is and what their requirements are, and then we can look at our processes and are they geared toward delivering on those requirements for our customer. On top of that, do we have the right metrics in place? To achieve what our customer is expecting so we can get the feedback, which is the basis for any continual improvement process. 

[00:39:20] Josh Santo: Okay, so there’s elements of foundation there too as well. Making sure that, like you said, the the standard has to be in place so everyone has to be aligned that this is just how we do this thing here at this organization, and that has to be shared and communicated, and then people have to be trained on that.

[00:39:39] Josh Santo: And then you have to consider whenever there’s a deviation from that, what.

[00:39:44] Thiago Roveri: I.

[00:39:45] Josh Santo: Are some of the drivers from that one? Is this an isolated incident or is this happening again and again and again? Because if it’s an isolated incident, you may be dealing with something with an individual that could be just a need for coaching, refresher training, things like that.

[00:40:01] Josh Santo: Or maybe, you know, a, a more stern conversation depending on the situation. But if multiple people are, are experiencing the same problem, then maybe you need to explore what’s happening systemically. That is preventing the team from being able to live up to the standards that we’ve put out there. That’s a good, good way of keeping in mind, how to address accountability versus enablement in that, in that kind, in that case.

[00:40:29] Josh Santo: So we talked about, we talked about from the basics that manufacturers should start with. We talked about process mapping, root cause analysis, problem solving five s just came up. What else would you add to that list?

[00:40:40] Thiago Roveri: spec specifically speaking of manufacturing environment, I think that a visual factory is a key element of your, basic pillars in a quality management system. So I used to say that the factory has to speak for itself, meaning that if I, I’m, I’m getting to that,shop floor for the first time. I don’t need anybody to explain me what is going on.

[00:41:05] Thiago Roveri: Just by looking at the signage, looking by the flow of material, how, the areas are organized, marked, I can understand, I can have a pretty good idea of what is going on there, where the material, gets in, how it’s processed, where is shipping, where is, storage, where is in process. So. The factory has to speak for itself.

[00:41:27] Thiago Roveri: So Visual Factory, I think it’s a key element that helps you with the discipline of HIAs because it is also part of how you, you keep order, and it gives everybody a clear direction.

[00:41:44] Josh Santo: Now when you described Visual Factory, my mind immediately went to technology, which is counter to our point earlier of don’t just jump to solutions. Like really make sure that you’ve got the foundational elements in place. So a visual factory, what, what does that look like when you say the factory should speak for itself?

[00:42:04] Josh Santo: ’cause without the right tools and, and technology in place, it can’t, it can’t really speak, I know we don’t mean literally, but talk to us about how it can speak for itself. In a visual factory approach.

[00:42:18] Thiago Roveri: You can start with simple marks with, color tapes on the floor where, you know, this is where the rejected material goals. And then you can put a, a sign there with, a nonconformance area where you can, define the flow of your material through the aisles that you have with arrows. And, you can paint the, the floor, the aisles with different colors. So that is a basic. a basic way to, to do that. But you can also go to more technological ways to do that. You can, you can install ends in your manufacturing area where you can display the metrics by our of what is going on, and the operators know exactly where they are, what they need to work on. you can use that also to,share important company information or do training or communication to, to the operators that are, involved in the specific processes.

[00:43:22] Thiago Roveri: So you can go from simple tools to more technological tools. We can automate your process of inspection, and things like that.

[00:43:33] Josh Santo: Got it. So it sounds like this idea of a visual factory is a A direction, not necessarily a destination, it’s something that maybe you will. Continue to pursue, you’ll make progress around it. There’s probably always something more that you can do, but as long as you keep this guiding principle in mind, that’s really what we’re talking about with the Visual Factory, making it so easy that when you step in, it’s clear to have an understanding of, you know, what this area is for, what are they doing, how things are progressing, what issues are being faced, et cetera.

[00:44:08] Thiago Roveri: Exactly. A good example, to, to, just to use an analogy to illustrate what, we just discussed. Think of a supermarket, let’s say Walmart because everybody knows and have been to a Walmart before, right? so when, when you park, they have a clear sign of what door is to enter and what door is to exit. So that it starts with that the, the visual factory starts there, right? You know exactly what door you have to use to enter a supermarket. Then once you’re there, the shelves are, and they are standard across all Walmart stores. That’s another thing, standardization, right? But when you are there, let’s say I want to buy a brand, you can look up and you will see signs saying, okay, aisle, eight 11, this is bread, rice, beans.

[00:44:59] Thiago Roveri: So you know exactly where you’re going. You don’t have to be asking people, Hey, where do I get this? Or where do I find this? Those are simple examples of how you can, in a simple manner, improve the flow of material people, production in in any environment that you have.

[00:45:20] Josh Santo: I like that example because you walk into one Walmart in one city, another Walmart in another one, and more or less you have a. Basic understanding of where things are gonna be located, if you’re already familiar with it, because to your point, it’s standardized. And then to further build upon that, there’s clear visual cues of if you’re looking for this, come over here.

[00:45:42] Josh Santo: Now if you’re anything like me, I still have to stop and ask my wife ’cause I just can’t find whatever it is that we’re, we’re looking for. But, yeah, so I will, I, I need to implement Visual Factory at my home for sure. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this Thiago, but I swear I’ll be looking for something and I will tell my wife, I cannot find it.

[00:46:02] Josh Santo: It’s not here, it’s not in the house, it doesn’t exist. You’re making this up. And she will more or less I’ll paraphrase, but more or less tell me to look at the same spot again. All of a sudden it’s there. Yeah. All of a sudden. So I don’t know if you’re, you’re, you’ve experienced that phenomenon, but, I certainly have so I could use 

[00:46:21] Thiago Roveri: I have to, yes, I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

[00:46:24] Josh Santo: well, we, we started this conversation talking about what manufacturers get wrong and you mentioned that they try to run before they walk. We spend a lot of time talking about what those foundational elements, or AKA walking looks like versus what the running would look like. You know, there, there’s listeners here of various stages within their quality journey, and I often find that providing people with tips and guidelines for how to assess their own situation can be very helpful.

[00:46:56] Josh Santo: So when we’re talking about this idea of, running before you walk, what are some ways in which listeners could look around at their own operation, within their own organization and assess whether they’re trying to run. Before they can walk.

[00:47:15] Thiago Roveri: So

[00:47:16] Thiago Roveri: what

[00:47:16] Thiago Roveri: I’m going to describe here is obviously just one of many ways you can use to assess the situation, right? But speaking specifically from a quality perspective, I like to use the cost of poor quality as the main indicator of where the quality is, is, is headed to. So when I speak of cost of pro quality, you can break that down into three specific categories.

[00:47:41] Thiago Roveri: The first one obviously being, the customer perspective. So when you’re speaking or, analyzing the performance of your quality with your customers, what is your warranty cost? Over time, right? How many complaints do you have from, from your customers on, on a, a monthly basis? The other one is the supplier quality.

[00:48:04] Thiago Roveri: So how many issues or interruptions did your suppliers cause to your, operation? And how much did they cost to you? So is there any specific supplier that you have to put more focus on to improve quality? and then lastly, your internal quality cost of your internal quality. And basically it’s your, first best yield rate, how many defects you get on,per hour or whatever you decide as the measuring method. And what is your scrap in terms of cost, right? So when you look at those specific metrics, you can have a pretty good idea. Whether your quality is headed to the right direction or not. if, if you see trends that are not very encouraging, it’s it’s a good sign that you might have to work on your basics.

[00:49:02] Thiago Roveri: You go back to the drawing board and focus on the basics of your quality management system. not necessarily, it doesn’t mean that necessarily you are focusing on sophisticated tools, but maybe the effort, because every organization has limited resources, limited people, limited time, and, and financial resources.

[00:49:23] Thiago Roveri: So you have to be spot on on where you work, to improve your quality. So going back to the drawing board based on those metrics can help you identify where the gaps are.

[00:49:36] Josh Santo: Got it. So if you’re, you’re listening to the show, you’re wondering whether or not your organization is trying to run before your organization can walk. One of the things that you can look at is costs of poor quality. I like how you defined three different categories for that. In conversations I’ve had with folks like yourself, I hear often that it’s, it’s difficult to fully measure the cost of poor quality.

[00:50:01] Josh Santo: And it’s kind of like the. To some degree, the visual factory where it’s a, it’s a goal, it’s a destination. There’s a lot of factors that come in. There’s ways that you can consistently view it and measure it, and those can be indicators of whether or not you’re keeping those total costs under control. So don’t, don’t worry so much about nailing everything down, but look at these three categories that you called out, customers, supplier quality, and internal quality.

[00:50:27] Josh Santo: When talking about customers, we’re talking about warranty cost and complaints with supplier quality. Looking at, are there any, supplier caused issues or interruptions to the productions side of things? Are there specific suppliers giving you more trouble than others? And then internal quality, what does your first pass yield look like?

[00:50:47] Josh Santo: What does your defect rate look like? What is the strap? cost look like to your organization. And by looking at that, you can get a pretty solid feel for whether or not your organization is adhering to the basics with that strong foundational, element. Well, and, and if not, then it’s an opportunity to put in that those root cause analysis, problem solving, peel back, define the problem.

[00:51:13] Josh Santo: Well dig in with the five why’s. You know, get to that point where you understand you’re confident that this would address the gap and it’s a cost effective approach to addressing the gap. And, you’ll start to over time, shore up that foundation so that you can start running.

[00:51:33] Josh Santo: Let’s, let’s talk about a story. You’ve got a story prepared for us, Thiago. Let’s, talk to us about your story.

[00:51:40] Thiago Roveri: Yeah. So, I’ve, I’ve been working with quality for over 25 years, but, in that journey I had the opportunity to work as a manufacturing manager for three years in a company that had, was running with three shifts, have machinery and heavily dependent on people. so you had the two elements of manufacturing that contribute to your, your, final product, machines and people. And it, it was a very interesting and rich experience from a, a leadership standpoint and also from the, implementing the basics that we just discussed, right? So, when I started with a company 150 employees, the productivity was between. Fi, 50 and 60%, and the goal was very clear. We have to bring this up to close to 90%. And how do you do that? Right? So the company had investigated many tools, many, investment in machines and in tech technology to bring that productivity, up. And when I joined the company and started discussing and talking with the operators on the floor, I realized that, there wasn’t a clear understanding of the needs of the operators. What I mean by that is, just to give you one example, I went to the bathrooms and in production. And that is a good way for you to assess. Whether a company cares about their employees or not, the condition of their production, their bathrooms in, in their production. and what I saw, well, the bathrooms were well maintained, but on the back of every door, the, the associates were riding their, or venting their frustrations.

[00:53:36] Thiago Roveri: You know, oh, water is too hot, people don’t care about us. You know, pay differences and things like that. So I started taking notes and then started talking to more operators until I identify that, you know, there, there are some basic things that we have to do first before we come to these people and ask them to give us more. We have to give them some before we can, ask for more. And well, long story short, a couple of actions that we implemented that helped. Improve efficiency, efficiency tremendously. where the first one, you know, these guys are working eight, 10 hours standing on their, feet, under heat because the, the plan was not, didn’t have any ac on the production floor so the water would, they didn’t have cold water and operators were complaining, you know, I’m thirsty and when I go to the water fountain, the water is warm, so let’s replace all the water fountains with cold water, and make sure that we maintain that for every area in, in, in our factory. The second one was, and it took us a little longer, but very. Important action was to understand where are the, where are the gaps related to, pay differences, right? So the, the gaps that we had for people, executing the same task under the same title, differences of 20, 30%, even, 40% difference in salary. We mapped every single position we realigned with HR and, and created a new,pay, pay, plan for the operators based on their level of experience, based on their tenure with the company, and the tasks that they performed. So by doing that, what we were able to see was, you know, kind of, almost,organically, productivity started in, in improving. Because the operators felt that, well now they are addressing our needs. You know, now people are listening to us and I think we can trust, this organization and can help them grow. So they started giving more because we first, addressed their basic needs. And obviously we had other improvements that also helped with the productivity increase, like, better production planning, better,preventive maintenance in our machines. But I’d say that the core of the whole plan was focused on the people that were making the products and what they needed to perform their task. Well,

[00:56:35] Josh Santo: So that’s, that’s quite the, the, the starting scenario. You, you mentioned productivity was 50 to 60% and corporate had a bandaid that it needed to get up to 90%. And immediately, I’m, I’m sure people can come with a ton of different quote unquote solutions to make that happen. but I, I think it’s interesting that one of your approaches was to, go to gemba, see what life is like, what are, what’s the team dealing with?

[00:57:01] Josh Santo: And you described, I. But pretty tough scenario. It’s hot, 10 to 12 hour shifts, you’re sweating and, you go to get a drink of water and it’s hot water. Oh man, that’s not gonna be a, you know, the most enjoyable environment. And here we are telling our teams that we’re gonna need a 40% increase in productivity.

[00:57:24] Josh Santo: at that case we’re, we’re, we’re gonna, in some ways ask you to do things differently. We may even ask you to do more. And so I like that one of the first things you did was focus on the people. And focus on, okay, if we’re gonna ask them to give more, what are we doing to give them more? How can we make it.

[00:57:44] Josh Santo: A little bit easier for them to be here doing these things that we need them to do. And it’s so interesting that you went to the bathroom. I’m curious, did you, did you stumble upon this or did you know, like, I, I need to go see what’s written on the bathroom walls, or were you just kind of in there one day and you were like, wait a minute, what’s this?

[00:58:04] Thiago Roveri: No, I,

[00:58:04] Thiago Roveri: I came from

[00:58:06] Thiago Roveri: from that environment, I started working in, in production with, machines and as an operator. So I know how that goes. You know,

[00:58:13] Thiago Roveri: I, I know how people vent their

[00:58:15] Thiago Roveri: frustrations and, I, I just use that previous experience to understand what they were saying, you know, without seeing it,loudly. And another important aspect, like I mentioned, we had three, shifts. So they have different needs. You know, the third shift obviously has less supervision, has less support. So that is a problem that first, and first and second shift don’t have. You have to be there and talk to those people to understand their specific needs.

[00:58:45] Thiago Roveri: You can’t simply,understand the needs of your first shift and apply that to the, the three shifts because it’s not gonna work. You have to understand clearly what each shift is, in need of. but it was a, a fun, not not easy, task, but a fun and very, reach experience.

[00:59:05] Josh Santo: You know when you said that Thiago, one of the things I immediately imagined was you go into the the bathroom walls and you’re like, oh yeah, I remember when I wrote that. That’s still true. We should do something about that. That was the first thing that I imagined.

[00:59:19] Thiago Roveri: You’re not wrong.

[00:59:21] Josh Santo: Yeah, exactly. And so, but that, that’s such an important point, is you, you knew the experience, you knew where some of the struggles tend to be.

[00:59:29] Josh Santo: You knew where people went to voice their, their frustrations in a way that they felt safe to do. So in that case, because that was how they could get it out there without necessarily being punished or being reprimanded for, for voicing that. And so you were trying to find ways to really understand what’s impacting my team and what can we do to make it easier to work for us so that they can spend less time dealing with some of these less than ideal scenarios and more time helping us achieve the goals that, that we’ve set for the entire company.

[01:00:05] Josh Santo: Because when, when they’re successful, we are successful. And I love that perspective that you brought within that particular story.

[01:00:13] Thiago Roveri: And another point that I think is important to mention, Josh, the example that I gave, like I. Explain in the beginning is a mix of people and machines, right? So in some cases it, it’s, it’s different. I, I worked for,Siemens for example, where, 90% of the production area was automated. So you had a big machine with one or two operators there.

[01:00:38] Thiago Roveri: In those instances, maybe the focus needs to be on the equipment, you know, not on the people. So you have to, be careful with how you, you, you,define your strategy to improve the quality. and again, going back to the root cause analysis, you know, where is the problem? Is it people or is it the machine?

[01:01:00] Thiago Roveri: Maybe in a highly automated organization, maybe your focus has to be on p preventive maintenance. Maybe you have to invest on new equipment, with new technology, right? Because of the age of your. Machine. So you have to be careful on, with how you, you approach that

[01:01:19] Josh Santo: Absolutely. The solution has to match the gap, 

[01:01:24] Thiago Roveri: Exactly. 

[01:01:25] Josh Santo: Though no one’s ever gonna be mad if you make it a little bit easier to work for you and a little bit more enjoyable, that, that, that pays dividends. So investing in your employees always a great idea, but they need to be able to work with, you know, good tools, good equipment, have the training, all those foundational elements that you described before.

[01:01:44] Josh Santo: Thiago, we covered a lot in this session. I certainly found it educational from my own perspective. I have no doubt our listeners do as well. You know, to stop. Everyone, stop. Take a look around. Are you trying to run before you can walk? Walking is the focus on the basics. And when we were talking about the basics with Thiago, we were talking about clear understanding of key processes, clear communication, management support, foundational training.

[01:02:10] Josh Santo: Proper documentation, those being foundational, and also making sure that you have a clear understanding of your key processes. have a structured problem solving approach in place, embracing a five s program, pursuing the concepts of a visual factory. All of these things can really help you focus on the basics so that you can build that foundation needed to then really implement some more advanced tools, advanced processes, in your pursuit of operational excellence.

[01:02:44] Josh Santo: Thiago, thanks so much for stopping by and joining us for the shop Floor top floor talk show.